Comments on: The Case FOR Amending the Constitution http://www.utahsarch.com/2010/02/the-case-for-amending-the-constitution/ Analysis, Rhetoric, Colloquy, and Heuristics on Utah Wed, 07 Dec 2011 03:46:21 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Ronald D. Hunt http://www.utahsarch.com/2010/02/the-case-for-amending-the-constitution/comment-page-1/#comment-613 Ronald D. Hunt Fri, 26 Feb 2010 05:51:14 +0000 http://www.utahsarch.com/?p=724#comment-613 You are arguing for the return of Senators to being appointed by the States legislatures they represent rather then elected? Even considering the blatant Corruption that happened under that model, For its flaws the 17th amendment had a purpose if we are seeking reform here I would suggest a move towards a <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportional_voting" rel="nofollow">Proportional Voting system</a> of some type. Multiparty reform would do wonders for the United States system. Several European Governments are elected via proportional voting and it works wonderfully, <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliament_of_Sweden" rel="nofollow">Swedish Parliament</a> for example has 7 sitting party's, Ireland's SVT voting system is also very interesting in their last election a quarter of the new members replaced members of the same party as their voting system allows a party to put up more then one candidate in a particular race. You are arguing for the return of Senators to being appointed by the States legislatures they represent rather then elected? Even considering the blatant Corruption that happened under that model, For its flaws the 17th amendment had a purpose if we are seeking reform here I would suggest a move towards a Proportional Voting system of some type. Multiparty reform would do wonders for the United States system. Several European Governments are elected via proportional voting and it works wonderfully, Swedish Parliament for example has 7 sitting party’s, Ireland’s SVT voting system is also very interesting in their last election a quarter of the new members replaced members of the same party as their voting system allows a party to put up more then one candidate in a particular race.

]]> By: Travis Grant http://www.utahsarch.com/2010/02/the-case-for-amending-the-constitution/comment-page-1/#comment-612 Travis Grant Fri, 26 Feb 2010 05:15:36 +0000 http://www.utahsarch.com/?p=724#comment-612 Wow, did nobody get the point of the post? It wasn't about the income tax. Sure, I used it as an ancillary example of a bad amendment. But my point was more about repealing the 17th amendment. But that is a typical tactic in a debate. Don't argue the real point but redirect it towards something you think you have a stronger hold on. Sorry, it won't work here. Just about any tax system is better than the income tax system that we have now. But the bigger issues is that repealing the 17th amendment would lead to better representation, and ultimate lead to a better tax system. Wow, did nobody get the point of the post? It wasn’t about the income tax. Sure, I used it as an ancillary example of a bad amendment. But my point was more about repealing the 17th amendment. But that is a typical tactic in a debate. Don’t argue the real point but redirect it towards something you think you have a stronger hold on.

Sorry, it won’t work here. Just about any tax system is better than the income tax system that we have now. But the bigger issues is that repealing the 17th amendment would lead to better representation, and ultimate lead to a better tax system.

]]> By: Ronald D. Hunt http://www.utahsarch.com/2010/02/the-case-for-amending-the-constitution/comment-page-1/#comment-611 Ronald D. Hunt Fri, 26 Feb 2010 05:06:43 +0000 http://www.utahsarch.com/?p=724#comment-611 A sales tax is very far from fair and no one should argue for a national sales tax on the nonsense basis of fairness. A National Sales tax would be a good partial replacement for corporate income tax's as corporate tax's are forwarded to the consumer in the end price point anyway and it makes a good "sidebar" tariff to keep jobs in the USA, and encourages personal savings(a claim I can buy but not everyone will). Lowering/ending the corporate income tax and replacing the revenue with a Cap and trade co2 tax, a exchange market tax(see: <a href="http://robinhoodtax.org.uk/" rel="nofollow">RobinHood Tax</a> and a national sales tax(I would suggest the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_added_tax" rel="nofollow">Value added tax sales tax model</a> would have the benefit from removing a great deal of corruption in corporations fighting for tax benefits, create tax's that corporations can't evade because frankly generally speaking they have so many holes in the system they don't pay their fair share, and have the beneficial environmental effects while not actually increases tax's. I don't believe that ending income tax's for the individual would be a good idea, its a good effective tax model that works very well. Their are reforms I would like to see as I believe that the current model is needlessly complex. Their are other reforms aside that I would like to see as well that are while not directly part of the tax system do effect it. I would like to see the Federal tax revenue sharing program that Nixon ended returned and allow States to fully fund mandated programs from the revenue sharing program. I would like to see all the Federal subside programs dollars(corn, wool, etc) rolled into a general business promotion and development system for states where the states could choose how to distribute their business promotion dollars(this avoids the political suicide of trying to kill the corn subsides as the corn states can continue to distribute them that way). It would be easier to cut to size the wasteful subsides dollars that are throw around if you are not attacking one particular lobby. I would also like to see a 20cent increase in the Federal gas tax to pay for a new coast to coast high speed rail system and a grant system for city's to build street car and other mass transit systems. China's new high speed rail system not only provides passenger travel at 210+ MPH but also provides freight travel at 155 MPH at that speed ups/usps/dhl/fedex could use it for anything that would otherwise require air travel to ship quick enough, that sounds like a big economy booster to me. Anyway back to the original subject, I believe the strongest voices for tax reform(fair tax or otherwise) are really just wanting a system that has better tax equality and the system we have definitely needs reform I haven't seen anyone actually propose something yet that is actually practical. A sales tax is very far from fair and no one should argue for a national sales tax on the nonsense basis of fairness. A National Sales tax would be a good partial replacement for corporate income tax’s as corporate tax’s are forwarded to the consumer in the end price point anyway and it makes a good “sidebar” tariff to keep jobs in the USA, and encourages personal savings(a claim I can buy but not everyone will).

Lowering/ending the corporate income tax and replacing the revenue with a Cap and trade co2 tax, a exchange market tax(see: RobinHood Tax and a national sales tax(I would suggest the Value added tax sales tax model would have the benefit from removing a great deal of corruption in corporations fighting for tax benefits, create tax’s that corporations can’t evade because frankly generally speaking they have so many holes in the system they don’t pay their fair share, and have the beneficial environmental effects while not actually increases tax’s.

I don’t believe that ending income tax’s for the individual would be a good idea, its a good effective tax model that works very well. Their are reforms I would like to see as I believe that the current model is needlessly complex.

Their are other reforms aside that I would like to see as well that are while not directly part of the tax system do effect it. I would like to see the Federal tax revenue sharing program that Nixon ended returned and allow States to fully fund mandated programs from the revenue sharing program. I would like to see all the Federal subside programs dollars(corn, wool, etc) rolled into a general business promotion and development system for states where the states could choose how to distribute their business promotion dollars(this avoids the political suicide of trying to kill the corn subsides as the corn states can continue to distribute them that way). It would be easier to cut to size the wasteful subsides dollars that are throw around if you are not attacking one particular lobby.

I would also like to see a 20cent increase in the Federal gas tax to pay for a new coast to coast high speed rail system and a grant system for city’s to build street car and other mass transit systems. China’s new high speed rail system not only provides passenger travel at 210+ MPH but also provides freight travel at 155 MPH at that speed ups/usps/dhl/fedex could use it for anything that would otherwise require air travel to ship quick enough, that sounds like a big economy booster to me.

Anyway back to the original subject, I believe the strongest voices for tax reform(fair tax or otherwise) are really just wanting a system that has better tax equality and the system we have definitely needs reform I haven’t seen anyone actually propose something yet that is actually practical.

]]> By: Travis Grant http://www.utahsarch.com/2010/02/the-case-for-amending-the-constitution/comment-page-1/#comment-610 Travis Grant Fri, 26 Feb 2010 04:33:52 +0000 http://www.utahsarch.com/?p=724#comment-610 "You’d be right at home in the 18th Century." Thanks Richard. I consider that a great compliment. “You’d be right at home in the 18th Century.”

Thanks Richard. I consider that a great compliment.

]]> By: rmwarnick http://www.utahsarch.com/2010/02/the-case-for-amending-the-constitution/comment-page-1/#comment-609 rmwarnick Thu, 25 Feb 2010 23:57:38 +0000 http://www.utahsarch.com/?p=724#comment-609 "Amendenments"? I like the Fourth Amendment, the one that says the U.S. government can't institute widespread illegal warrantless surveillance of Americans. But they did anyway. But thanks for taking a brave stand against progressive taxation and democracy. You'd be right at home in the 18th Century. “Amendenments”? I like the Fourth Amendment, the one that says the U.S. government can’t institute widespread illegal warrantless surveillance of Americans. But they did anyway.

But thanks for taking a brave stand against progressive taxation and democracy. You’d be right at home in the 18th Century.

]]> By: Travis Grant http://www.utahsarch.com/2010/02/the-case-for-amending-the-constitution/comment-page-1/#comment-608 Travis Grant Thu, 25 Feb 2010 23:53:06 +0000 http://www.utahsarch.com/?p=724#comment-608 This is not the case. Most nation sales tax system have several methods to counter for that. First, it will not be a tax on food, second many of them have systems for a tax rebate for all people who make less than the poverty level. Check out the <a href="http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer?pagename=about_faq_answers#3" rel="nofollow">Fair Tax proposal</A> to help remove the regressive nature of a flat sales tax. This is not the case. Most nation sales tax system have several methods to counter for that. First, it will not be a tax on food, second many of them have systems for a tax rebate for all people who make less than the poverty level. Check out the Fair Tax proposal to help remove the regressive nature of a flat sales tax.

]]> By: JBT http://www.utahsarch.com/2010/02/the-case-for-amending-the-constitution/comment-page-1/#comment-607 JBT Thu, 25 Feb 2010 23:37:21 +0000 http://www.utahsarch.com/?p=724#comment-607 The essential problem with your national sales tax is its regressive nature. The poor who spend most of their income on living essentials would pay the same rate as those at the highest income levels. The essential problem with your national sales tax is its regressive nature. The poor who spend most of their income on living essentials would pay the same rate as those at the highest income levels.

]]> By: Travis Grant http://www.utahsarch.com/2010/02/the-case-for-amending-the-constitution/comment-page-1/#comment-605 Travis Grant Thu, 25 Feb 2010 15:03:22 +0000 http://www.utahsarch.com/?p=724#comment-605 I have been a big supporter of the Fair Tax (or a national sales tax). However, I have heard recent talk about implementing a tax system where the Federal Government sends a bill to the states, and then the state raises the funds in the way best for that state and then pays the bill. I have some problems with this idea, however, if the Senators are elected by our state legislators, then I think that this system could work because it would institute a nice balance of powers. So, if we can repeal the 17th amendment, then implement this type of tax system, I would be in favor of it. I have been a big supporter of the Fair Tax (or a national sales tax). However, I have heard recent talk about implementing a tax system where the Federal Government sends a bill to the states, and then the state raises the funds in the way best for that state and then pays the bill. I have some problems with this idea, however, if the Senators are elected by our state legislators, then I think that this system could work because it would institute a nice balance of powers. So, if we can repeal the 17th amendment, then implement this type of tax system, I would be in favor of it.

]]> By: JBT http://www.utahsarch.com/2010/02/the-case-for-amending-the-constitution/comment-page-1/#comment-604 JBT Thu, 25 Feb 2010 12:40:41 +0000 http://www.utahsarch.com/?p=724#comment-604 If the 16 amendment were repealed removing the income tax, how would the important essential government functions such as national defense, FDA, CDC, etc. be funded? If the 16 amendment were repealed removing the income tax, how would the important essential government functions such as national defense, FDA, CDC, etc. be funded?

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